...of the post?
No, I would not care to put myself in the middle of the poster argument with another poster.
I will and I am new and I don't know either the diarist or the target. I did a control F search in this diary and when I put in Alito, I came up with no hits.
How could NARAL support the guy who snubbed the filibuster of Alito. The same way Bush would never be removed from office, he should have been impeached. That filibuster of Alito should have happened and it should have appeared everywhere on the news whether or not it would have survived cloture. Obama walked away from it because he never really takes a stand. Amazing how you can be for change but never change anything.
Those decisions are mostly made in regards to the court of public opinion. See here:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9 /30/102745/165/500/153069
by filling in as the proxy schoolmarm. No sense in playing coy now.
Well, I think my diary is about more than a single diary - its about a general tone. I didn't make it public to embarrass Alegre, I write it publically because I felt it substantively addressed issues in a way a "normal" diary would.
If you are looking to discuss substance than take the other posters name out of the title.
As long as it's there it's just a call out diary.
Is that a promise? If he changes it to "Dear X" will you then debate the merits of his point?
Done. I'd welcome any other thoughts.
You can still comment on the nature of Obama's pro-choice positions, the role of polarity, or anything you think I got wrong.
leaving kansas. Woooohoooo
exactly. you are breaking site rules here.
Did my changes suffice?
I agree. I hate this kind of diary. Not recommended.
Furthermore, clearly this diarist doesn't realize that this dog won't hunt:
"...the organization argued that a present vote would be difficult for Republicans to use in campaign literature against Democrats from moderate and conservative districts who favored abortion rights."
Barack Obama was a Senator representing a Democratic bastion. He certainly wasn't threatened by voting his principles.
He wasn't threatened. Which is why he voted present. To give dems in purple districts cover.
Btw, lets apply that same test to HRC with regards to the AUMF.
Hillary Clinton was a Sen representing a Dem bastion. She wasn't threatened by her voting principles...yet she voted for the war.
his vote gave no one cover except himself and his desire for higher office.
I don't mean to let my facts interfere with your opinion, but if the claim is that his votes help downticket dems in purple and red areas, and then Travis Childers wins a Mississippi district that's been republican for a generation when the entire GOP strategy revolved around tying him to Obama (and the boogeyman Wright) and Childers wins...Isn't it pretty justified to say Obama's done well for dowticket dems?
Hillary's gas tax is pandering for a higher office.
Hillary's lies about sniper fire were lies to justify her "experience"
Who's the sanctimonious one now?
How woud that vote give him cover for higher office? It was part of a pro-choice strategy.
I'm confused on how you think this was a sign of weakness.
True, but the idea was to get a big block of legislators, to give the ones that were at risk cover.
When every piece of ahem writing she does gets recced up, she really does become more than the average user. Like it or not, by her prevalence on this site, she is accountable for what she writes.
Personally, I cannot fathom why this person's diaries are so widely followed and recced. Most of them are pretty lame.
Yes, I'll get flamed for this, but I guess I just don't understand her appeal.
It's astroturfing by the Hillaryis44 and Taylormarsh crowd. The site moderators here have also become complicit by removing rec privileges from Obama supporters so Alegre and the other's diaries can more easily make the list.
The reason her diaries are rec'd is because of what she writes and how she writes.
I have never gone to H44 and I have only checked out TM's site maybe... 3 times.
So once again, I call Bullshit on your comment.
I really wonder if any of you O supporters realize what really happens at Dkos. The thing is, that you may not notice the abuse the admins do because the audience is much larger then here at MyDD. Plus you are on the same "side" as kos in who you support and who you attack.
Sorry, Linfar was TOTALLY BUSTED today and last week.
you want links?
Read this: http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/1427 30/254
What did she do this time?
to come over here and rec her diaries. IndyDem99 does it as well. Kind of sad.
Messages requesting recs like the following go out pretty much each time one of the 'prominent' MYDD Rec listers put a diary up.
Guys in all the time I've been on the blog no one has EVER gone in and > deleted sections of my diary or deleted my post. Not even at > DailyKos. I included a brief reference to those 400 bloggers BO's > supposedly hired and the bots bitched up a blue streak to Johnathan > Singer - admin. at MyDD. So they warned me and then deleted the first > chunk of my diary tonight. > > I just thought I'd mention this in case you're wondering why my diary > looks like it starts in the middle. Do me a favor and go rec my diary > up - get it onto the rec list ok? Thanks. > > --- In HillarysVoice@yahoogroups.com, "hillarysbloggers" > <hillarysbloggers@> wrote: > > > > > > Bots are swarming folks - I need help! > > http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/2346 20/424 > > <http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/234620/424> > > > > Thanks! Alegre :)
If this comment somehow breaks site rules....feel free to hide it...no hard feelings. ;)
The same happens at Kos. The same happens at Kos for people to come here. The same happens all over the blogosphere.
wes Clark and John Edwards supporters did that all the time. There is nothing wrong with saying... "hey, there is a good XYZ candidate diary at blogX, please give it some help".
Obama people do it too.
so you can understand why your constant refrain of "Kos does it too!!" is extremely unpersuasive.
My "constant" refrain?
No... it is a reminder to all of the O supporters to look within and at Dkos before bashing MyDD and Jerome.
see?
not just Jerome but also before bashing other diarist such as Alegre
yes, it is a classic tu quoque. Did you google it?
If someone says "Person A is doing X, and X is bad." Responding with "But B does X too! What about B?" does absolutely nothing to rebut the proposition that X is bad. That's why nobody is persuaded when you use Kos to deflect criticism of posters here.
You don't get it. I am not trying to persuade anyone.
I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of trying to call out MyDD, Jerome and some of the Hillary Clinton supporters.
I am not trying to say that some of these arguments are not valid. BUT as you point out these arguments fall on deaf ears and people are not persuaded because of the greater hypocrisy of Dkos, other places and other bloggers. (greater, because they are MUCH bigger)
but people shouldn't be gaming the rec list, either here or at Kos. Can you agree on that?
kind of.
But it will continue to happen. I have a feeling this diary got on the list because a call was put out to get it there.
There have been pro Obama diaries that have never made it to the the rec list but this diary that calls out a fellow blogger gets on the rec list with a huge amount of recs.
Kudos for getting it there but....
Nope. The only people who saw this diary did it because they clicked the link. I didn't alert anyone - however, some of the rec list diaries were fading, so that probably helped.
ages ago, when the kozzacks would do it.
but when she alleges that Obama would be stealing Indiana if he wins... well, that's not someone I would want on the rec list. It's called a loose cannon, and I wouldn't want to see that person up there every single day.
It's not about the person. It's about the diaries.
Names are good for getting clicks, but they don't (or shouldn't) get recs.
This isn't dkos for the 1000th time...
Do you not get it for the 100th time?
Some of you O people come here and COMPLAIN away about a diary, diarist or the admins but you seem to be BLIND to what happens at the BIGGEST blog of the all. Dkos.
get it?
geeez.
I'm not a member at Dkos....you are. And for someone who talks shit about it all the time, you seem to be over there quite a bit...
this how?
I have been on Dkos since 2003 or 04.. I don't really remember.
Now if you are not a "member" at dkos, then how do you know what I do at dkos?
Also... the amount that I use Dkos is about 5% of what it used to be simply because of what happened over there. I have the bruises and scars to prove it.
Ok. I don't know what you did at D Kos, but that still doesn't legitimize citing their actions to justify someone else's.
Ahhh, such nice manners here at MyDD. Such understanding. Such patience.
Let she/he who is without sin cast the first stone.
That would work, except that many of the more vocal H supporters on this site consider themselves to be without sin - just like they consider their candidate to be without sin.
I seem to recall this somewhere:
* Post as many comments as you like, but users that post comments that do nothing but name-call, denigrate the site users, or make inflammatory remarks will either be warned, or outright banned. * Do not troll rate (rating as 0) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.
* Do not troll rate (rating as 0) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.
But, then you've troll-rated non-attack comments of mine before, for no reason, and you haven't been banned from MyDD.
So, I guess all's fair...
If DKos does it, then many of the H supporters feel justified that MyDD does it.
I've been away from MyDD for months, since I was improperly banned. I shouldn't have come back. It's worse now.
Now let me take your words and spin them.
"So, I guess all's fair...
If MyDD does it, then many of the O supporters feel justified that Dkos does it.
I've been away from Dkos for months, since I was improperly banned. I shouldn't have come back. It's worse now."
Do you get my point?
I have seen the light! I see your point!!
Thank you for clearly pointing out to me what I have been missing all of this time.
You feel justified in improperly troll-rating users of MyDD because you were improperly troll-rated by people at Dkos.
And, you feel justified that I should have been improperly banned at MyDD because you were improperly banned at DKos.
Even though I did not troll-rate you at DKos or improperly ban you at Dkos, it is still appropriate for you (and the Admins) to do those things to me, because then justice is served in this surreal Intertube-world.
Thanks for clearing this up for me, kevin22262. It makes so much more sense now.
I take it that I'm now permanently banished from MyDD forever, and should hang my head in shame, and never post here again?
Ok. Such is life. Tu quoque.
Longos imitaris, kevin22262.
for proving my feelings about some of the O kids.
Thanks for proving my point about you troll-rating my posts improperly, for which you won't get warned or banned.
And, sorry to disprove your feelings.....I'm not one of the O kids.
I was, and am still, an Edwards adult. And a woman.
Don't patronize me.
don't act like an O kid. Or a child.
How exactly do you survive in the wild and wooly world of the unstable intertubes with a skin so thin?
Does sarcasm bite you so deeply?
Which part did you feel was acting like an "O kid" and which part was acting like "a child"?
Snark? Quoting scripture? Sarcasm? Quoting user rules? Publicly talking about your tendency to HR and TR without cause? Quoting Latin?
Or is your fallback position just to call someone names?
Not only shouldn't I have come back here, I also shouldn't have bothered posting anything.
I'll let you have the last words, kevin22262.
Make them good ones.
to prove that you act like a child.
And you continue to engage. If she's so immature, don't giveher your attention.
Nullane res potuit crudelis flectere mentis consilium? Tibi nulla fuit clementia praesto, immite ut nostri vellet miserescere pectus? - Gaius Valerius Catullus - LXIV
- Gaius Valerius Catullus - LXIV
You're right, don't give her [me] your attention, if I'm so immature!
As to the human race. There are many pretty and winning things about the human race. It is perhaps the poorest of all the inventions of all the gods but it has never suspected it once. There is nothing prettier than its naive and complacent appreciation of itself. It comes out frankly and proclaims without bashfulness or any sign of a blush that it is the noblest work of God. It has had a billion opportunities to know better, but all signs fail with this ass. I could say harsh things about it but I cannot bring myself to do it - it is like hitting a child. - Mark Twain, Autobiographical dictation
- Mark Twain, Autobiographical dictation
and this person continues to engage but in doing so also throws shit around.
whatever.
I hate to bring this up, but a lot of the troll-rate abuse I have seen on this site comes from one side... Clinton supporters who do not like what they have read... no personal attacks... no inappropriate comments... just divergent opinions.
You can't HR sarcasm. My God.
Thank you for noticing the HR, and uprating.
at me.
Why do you lie?? You aren't banned from Dkos, you just wrote a diary yesterday and have commented for the last week...Instead of bringing your complaints to Dkos you come over here so you can be surrounded by your "buddies" and then you throw your insults...can't do it at Dkos can ya??
Actually I've noticed it's pretty civil overthere with the exception of the occasional asshole, but if you can find a blog that doesn't have a few hanging around, let me know where that's at!
Kos has great issue and down ticket coverage, I think people forget that sometimes through all of the outlandish and inflammatory diaries that get posted over here to prove a point. I saw one that had two people rec it, most of the commenters said it was crappy, and yet still it was posted here because it fanned the flames of a blog war. Let's grow up a little!
How long have you been at Dkos?
I sometimes wonder if some of you O supporters are blind to what goes on over at Dkos because most of the diaries support O or bash Clinton.
The numbers of users and posters at Dkos greatly outnumbers MyDD, so you will see more variety and maybe not notice a diary hanging around as long. This is a fact that seem to allude many of you.
Since long before this primary season. One of the reasons I started coming on this site was because it did get nasty over there for awhile. But it's really died down since then. If you find yourself being the target of attacks over there, it may be because of the tone of argument you are using. I haven't seen anyone bash another for a well-informed civil disagreement and if they do, there are others who are willing to step in defense.
Alot of people need to come off their high horses and admit the dialogue's gotten just as muddy on this site.
it has not gotten bad here.
sure, whatever you say :\
then... ok?
I really don't want to get in a pissing contest with a skunk. But I've been accused of following a cult of personality, drinking the "Koolaid", taking Obama pills, being "one of the creepy crawly things", and these are the comments that come from trying to put level headed facts into the arguments. And that is the most alarming thing about it.
Not to say I've never said something stupid on this blog, but when I do, there are usually people there to point that out. But when people respond to me with insults when I'm trying to point out facts, it reminds me alot of when people used to call me a terrorist for not supporting the Iraq war. Me and my stupid facts...
First off... with a skunk?
Second... I have NEVER said those things to anyone!
hm.
Sorry, the skunk comment didn't come out right. In no way did I mean to put you in the lot with that dastardly Pepe le Pew.
And you may not have said those things. But those are just a few of my reasons that I think the dialogue in this site is just as bad as it ever was on Kos
What was your point in posting this?
Post what? My last comment?
Yep. Seemed like a fairly pointless comment to make; I wondered why you posted it.
What total bs. Alegre is known and recommended because she speaks for many of us who are party activists who support Hillary. She has no special connection to the administrators and certainly not to the "crowd" you refernece. She made her bones at DKos and led us away from that rotten orange when it became a Hillary-hate site.
As for the diarist, he said it all up front. He's a guy. He doesn't get it. And he's taken a lot of space to ask women to explain it all to him or shut up. I won't do either.
I'll just say when you attack Alegre or Hillary you attack me and millions of women. It's personal.
I fail to see any attack.
But women can be wrong, you know.
Just like men.
and neither does anyone else. Get over yourself.
So in supporting women, you attack black women? Fan fracking tastic...
From Slate.com
Most of all, I remembered reading Steinem's line that gender was the most restricting force in America today and laughing aloud, because I was so sure that what she meant to say was that gender is the most restricting force in America today--if you happen to be white and middle-class. Having spent some time that week at a Boston public school that is visibly and painfully segregated--segregated and restricted by race and economic status and parental educational attainment and maybe some other things but certainly not by gender
Wow. Are you serious? A little melodramatic don't you think.
Some of these posts...are just...plain bizarre.
I tried and got trolled. I think sometimes when people say they don't understand, they really mean they don't agree, and that the call for an explanation only means they want a chance to tr your dissenting opinion. Have you noticed that the closer we get to a nom and the more Barack is seen as unstoppable, the meaner his supporters get? it's weird. It's tired.
I'm sorry you feel that Obama supporters are being mean. I'm trying to work against that.
no matter what form it takes and who it comes from. Allegre's diaries are completely without substance, over-emotional copy and paste jobs.
I'm so sick of the second-wave feminist BS. The philosphy being: The only way to fit in with the status quo is to become the status quo. So women are supposed to pick up what some consider to be the worst aspects of "maleness" in order to fit into a man's world.
So now all of us must suffer: the hawkish(the commander and chief threshold) war-mongering (I was for the Iraq war before I was against it, but I didn't know what I was voting for) tough as nails(I will eat any Republican or fellow Democrat who stands in my way) never listen to reason (no economist agrees with my gas tax holiday, but I won't let that stand in my way) a man could never understand the plight of women (Obama is 100% with women on all issues)
Some of the best feminists I know are men, and some of the worst feminists I know are women. And I'm sure the majority of women between the ages of 20-30 could say the same thing. And it is a new generation after all.
That's fairly far reaching. Care to back that up?
I disagree. There is some stuff I don't have in my memory, but that doesn't invalidate my point. Rather, its something to consider along with it.
I've seen Linfar do this - not Alegre.
She just writes great diaries, and has name recognition for them. Which means more people read, more people recommend, etc, etc.
I don't ever read her diaries because they are just nonstop propaganda. I was wondering how each of them manages to get into the rec list even though each of us could probably predict the content of each of them. One of the posters to this entry provides a plausible explanation.
OMG. I agree with you, lombard.
...
I'm dumbstruck.
Thank you.
I yet see a glimmer of hope for reconciliation.
But, alas, my reasonableness is likely only temporary!
But I'll carry it with me forevah. ;)
If I could rec, I would, but this will have to suffice
:invisible 2-rate:
I like her diaries, especially the positive ones. Part of leadership is rallying the troops - and Alegre is extremely good at that.
Her positive diaries are fine. However, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how they are so great as to make the rec list for every single one.
Her negative diaries are atrocious and usually completely uncalled for. These diaries sit on the rec list far longer. This is what bothers me about her and this site.
Its a snowball effect - name recognition means that more write/read, and I do think her diaries are good.
It would be my observation, having lurked here for some time and posted few comments, that whenever Alegre is called out in a professional manner with facts in her own diaries, she either refuses to answer or uses childish retorts that do nothing to foster creative debate and/or criticism.
So in an atmosphere where she consistently has recommended diaries, makes various claims that don't always hold up to a microscope and yet fails to respond or childishly responds to some of the more non-hostile criticisms, you expect either the Admin to do something or for her to reply, in a private email, that doesn't allow anyone else to have their say either in the public forum?
Please. This Open Letter diary was reasonable, well formed, thought-out, polite, had substance, and has an acceptable grievance.
If Alegra can't handle this kind of heat, maybe she should get out of the kitchen.
My favorite was her Indiana primary diary, which she updated by decrying all the "rude and crowing" Obama supporters. When I read through the thread, the comment that stood out was hers, wherein she claimed that, if Obama won Indiana, it would be because the mayor of Gary committed vote fraud.
it's still skullduggery.
was outrageous.
she called all Obama supporters boys while referring to Hillary supporters as ladies.
Her ego is so huge she can't imagine another woman disagreeing with her. Then she throws out the word "boys" in such a denigrating way, as if being a man was some sort of handicap.
As a woman, I found it unforgivably rude and disgusting.
I feel like its in the same sense that Southerners will say Yankee - it's not so much an insult as it is dividing lines - in the (women) club and not.
Yes, another word for them.
just because someone posts a question or comment doesn't mean someone else has to answer them.
The way you make it sound, Alegre is a little known, seldom heard voice in this corner of Blogatopia who makes infrequent comments, posts even less frequently than she comments, and otherwise doesn't hit on the controversial topics...
...like me...
However, we're not talking about one comment or one question, but a slew, a repetition, a continuation of talking points, bulletins, and attacks.
If I were consistently having diaries on the rec list and was an overpowering voice for one political site, I would feel it to be, in fact, my responsibility to answer as many questions as I can.
And especially when writing on controversial topics, if I were so sure of everything I put into a post and believed in whole-heartedly and 100%, if someone challenged me on the information, I would respond.
And not only would I respond, I would respond with class and facts, not childish remarks like:
Tell us again... what's your guy offering up this summer? Yeah - didn't think so.
Yeah - didn't think so.
If she wants to be an overpowering voice on this or any other site, then she leaves herself (fairly) open to criticism and if she chooses not to respond, it speaks even more volumes about her than anything else.
I'm sure if she turned around and wrote a post condemning a woman's right to choose, you and countless others would be first in line demanding answers.
What a shame it would be if she never got back to you...
Phillybits' point doesn't mean you're obliged to issue a non sequitur in response.
A point I made in the diary, but you're correct. I was wary of using her name given that I didn't want to capitalize on it, but I changed the name due to the comment controversy on/over it.
haha, she posted a diary about FL and MI and I posted a comment brought up my cousins in FL who chose to go to their mission in Haiti instead of voting for their candidate (O'bama) because they were told their votes didn't count. I asked if their votes should be count or if they should be penalized for (quoting her words from the diary) "following the rules the DNC sorted out".
She took the time to use my comment to lambest an Obama supporter saying "I didn't ask him" but failed to address the concern I was addressing with her.
My complaint wasn't about site policies - e-mailing the AD isn't really applicable here. I did think about a comment, but I felt a diary was merited.
"An Open Letter to Alegre," doesn't count as a call-out, I think. I think I'm in the grey area, but my post is about the nature of our communication on this site. I used Alegre as my example, but I felt I was engaging ISSUES enough to merit the post.
This isn't about Alegre, or me. However, Alegre is a leader, so in some ways, I was engaging all Hillary supporters. At this point, I think I've crossed into semi-spin, so I'll shut up.
"An open letter to Clinton Supporters" and accomplished the same thing.
And on substance I agree with much of it.
But I don't like seeing user names in diary titles.
I disagree. A majority of the clinton supporters on this site are very civil and open to intelligent discourse. They are willing to listen to facts, base opinions on those facts and reanalyze their opinions based on facts and new information as it comes out.
I think this diary was not intended just for Alegre, but she is one of the most vocal of a faction of Clinton supporters who selectively choose their facts, often times failing to support their facts (unless an unnamed pollster on Hill44 is "verifying your facts") and, while refusing to participate in the kind of civil two way dialogue that blogs are supposed to be about often times get dragged into mudslinging contests against other dems. Those are the members this is addressed to. Her name gets their attention.
I got rid of it, thanks to comments like this one.
whenever anyone posts a lengthy, substantive comment in one of Allegre's diaries her only response is "Get your own diary!"
This diarist has chosen to do just that, and he's accomplished it with a profoundly simple and respectful tone.
Recommended whole-heartedly!
Thank you - I've never seen such a comment from Alegre, but I felt that with the sources, I was better off with a diary.
