MyDD :: beyond the beginning of the end

beyond the beginning of the end

by wasder, Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:12:22 PM EST

This is well beyond the beginning of the end of the Clinton campaign for Presidency. With Leahy and Dodd (Obama supporters no doubt, but nationally recognized Dem leaders as well) calling for her to step aside, reports of Clinton superdelegates saying they will go with the pledged delegate winner (see TPM), Bob Casey breaking his "no endorsement" stance, and the general settling in of the "Clinton can't win" theme in the MSM, the writing is well beyond being on the wall. The writing is the wall at this point. How long Hillary decides to stay in beyond May 6th could well decide what her future in the Democratic party will be. I hope that she decides to pull out on May 7th, as that will be a date by which she will have had one last chance to pull out a miracle (winning all three of PA, NC and IN) and barring said miracle there will be no chances left for her to significantly alter the dynamics of the race (at least in a democratic and honorable way). So fight on until May 7th Hillary and then if the race is still in the current Obama vise-grip, please step aside. You have a long and illustrious senate career ahead of you and all of us democrats will be supportive of you in that role. Please don't make me (a two time Bill Clinton presidential voter and two time Hillary Clinton Senate voter) and others like me rethink our position that you in the end are a loyal democrat.

Tags: clinton, dropping out (all tags)

Permalink :: 37 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (2.00 / 1)

"Please don't make me (a two time Bill Clinton presidential voter and two time Hillary Clinton Senate voter) and others like me rethink our position that you in the end are a loyal democrat."

Is that a threat? Are you really making a threat against Hillary Clinton? Please clarify your comment.

by 07rescue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:17:28 PM EST

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

No threat at all, just saying that if she stays in way beyond the point that she has any reasonable chance of winning (and I think May 7th is a beyond generous definition of this), that I could come to the conclusion that she is not a loyal democrat but instead a person who is putting her own interests above those of the party and by extension the country.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please stop this... (2.00 / 1)

Many campaigns have gone to the conventions..

It is not at all unusual..

ITS THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS....

So Obama supporters, please stop your whining..

BTW, IF OBAMA IS SUCH A DEMOCRAT, WHY IS HE FIGHTING A MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA REVOTE?

Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.

by architek on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please stop this... (none / 0)

Not many winning campaigns have gone to the convention. None that I can think of at least since the advent of the modern primary system.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Thanks for your commentary. Be strong in the face of the Hillbots.

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

I must say that if we want them to stop calling us Obamaloons we can't call them Hill-bots.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Good point. The urge is overwhelming sometimes :)

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

all good.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Well, a very sensible counterargument would be that, in a divided race, HRC staying in to give voice to her supporters, many of whom are not considered within Obama's "base", but are considered as part of the Democrats "base", would be an honorable move.

Look, I'm not gonna say she has a good shot to win. It's quite slim, and I think everyone can acknowledge that. But the rules of the finality of the game should not be changed, as moveon wants to try to do. Unless someone has the necessary delegates, there isn't a winner, and to suggest that her staying in would make her disloyal, I just don't buy that. Now, if you want to say she would be showing great leadership for the party by backing out, fine. I can buy that. But to suggest she's disloyal? That implies that the metrics to the finality of the game is different from when the process began.

by toonsterwu on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

I'll grant you that if she stays in until the convention and is a positive voice rather than a snipy, attack dog, that would be fine. The problem lies in the manner in which she conducts herself. If she continues to lie, cheat and attack Obama all the way until the convention, the Democrats will suffer. If she's nice and speaks about real issues that matters to real people, fine by me.

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

"If she continues to lie, cheat and attack Obama all the way until the convention, the Democrats will suffer."

Only if he stops lying, cheating, and attacking Hillary. It's a two way street. He has been lying and cheating and attacking her all along the way, and she shouldn't just sit there and accept it like a doormat.

by 07rescue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

That is a reasonable counter argument as far as it goes. I acknowlege that there are millions of people who want Hillary to win (nearly as many as want Obama to win obviously) and therefore these people's issues and concerns need to be taken into consideration. However there are other ways to do that besides contesting a primary campaign that has no possible positive outcome. She could do as Edwards did and call on Obama to carry the flag for whatever issues she wants to call attention to (presumably middle class economic issues with which she has been closely aligned).

The rules about the finality of the game don't really come into effect here because of what happened with the MI and FL delegations. Since these will not count towards the nomination (at least until there is a nominee who controls the rules committee) neither candidate will reach the automatic number. By your logic nobody should call for her to drop out until the last votes are cast in the first week of June. I could live with that personally, though I don't really see the point as the remaining states lack the number of delegates to make a real difference. But using the fact that Obama doesn't have 2025 pledged delegates as a reason to force a floor fight at the convention doesn't cut it for me.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What would we do without you? (none / 0)

I mean, we're all so stupid. Thank you for being so generous to us idiots so as to allow our candidate (who is tied with your candidate and will win the GE - versus your candidate who won't) to stay in until May 7th.

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What would we do without you? (none / 0)

Shazone--nobody is calling anybody else an idiot. I said in my initial post that there are basically as many people in the Dem party who want Hillary to win as want Obama to win. But the reality is that within the rules that the party has established to choose the nominee Obama is in the dominant position. Hillary can only win the nomination in a negative way (ie taking Obama down at the convention). If she wins that way it will have very negative ramifications for the party. These are the facts as they exist on the ground.

Well done by your daughter to make the game winner. Your daughters team got more points and won the game. If there was such a shot for Clinton, I would encourage her to take it, but there just isn't such a thing.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:05:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're wrong. If Obama.... (none / 0)

keeps making Wright mistakes then he will trip on his own shoelaces and the "other team" will win. It's alos possible that he has already done himself so much damage that the polls will continue to demonstrate that he CANNOT win the general...do you want to go with such a candidate in that situation?

I also disagree that there is no "other" way for her to win. If things are so sown up for Barry, why is he acting like an also-ran in his campaign tactics? Why are all of you squealing so loudly for Clinton to concede?

It's doesn't make sense...IMHO.

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're wrong. If Obama.... (none / 0)

Well, I don't see too much common ground that you and I can occupy but I will say that I think that whatever negative effect Jeremiah Wright has had on Obama's candidacy has taken place already. I don't know what other "mistakes" he can make on this score. The national polling is not reflecting any kind of collapse in his support and the primary state polling shows a contest that is basically in a settled position as described above (close but with Obama in a clear delegate lead).

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Thank you Wasder. For this piece, which I enjoyed reading.
I don't think we should be vocal in asking her to step aside.
That can backfire with her supporters which we need.
But I agree, its 5mins to go to the end on a 45 minute game.

McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future

by KathyM on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:21:06 PM EST

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Thanks. I think, as another diarist also noted, that getting through May 6th without clamoring for her to withdraw is a good measuring stick. My diary here is not a call for her to withdraw but more an attempt to articulate that contrary to what Jerome or others want to post, this primary campaign is well into the end game and Clinton is in a very precarious position.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is Obama disenfranchising voters? (none / 0)

This really disturbs me.. Is what Hillary is saying in this video true? IS Obama fighting to PREVENT a revote in Florida and Michigan that would allow the voters from those states to be heard?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/27/1949 47/250

Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.

by architek on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is Obama disenfranchising voters? (none / 0)

Gosh you just have a stock of copy and paste BS that you dump into any diary that questions your precious, don't you?

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Our daughter shot a 3 point basket... (none / 0)

to win a game with a few second to go...I think her coach would have been wrong to have walked off the court with five minutes to go.

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Agreed. As Clinton says, she is perfectly within her rights to take this to the convention. The real consideration is what she'll do to the party if she does.

"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."

by campaignmonitor on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:40:34 PM EST

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Instead of viewing the negative prism, I'll argue this. If Clinton stays in, she forces the party to truly reevaluate itself, even if she loses. At a time when we need our politicians to be partisan, to fight for liberalism, to push American liberalism to the left, at a time when we need to win back blue collar voters, at a time when hispanic and asian american voices are slowly emerging, at a time when we need proven ability to work across the aisle, HRC staying in could force the party to recognize the diverse issues at hand, the significance of the moment, the opening we have.

Let me be real clear in something. I'm not saying one voice is greater or more significant than the other, as many Obama supporters have claimed (not saying you in particular, just in general). Rather, it'll force the party to recognize that there are a diverse number of groups out there due to the diverse base that she draws from, and perhaps, if Obama is the nominee, give him critical insight on how to attract these disparate groups.

by toonsterwu on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

wish there was an edit button ...

anyhow, to expand on my comment a bit ...

As I've noted in previous comments, I believe the time is ripe for American liberalism to make a hard charge left. Now, all that being said, having a partisan agenda doesn't mean that an individual can't work with the other party.

Side comment - I am very fearful, in general, that the Democratic Party has tunnel vision. Rather than focusing on broader policies, policies with stronger implications toward reestablishing the base, we are focusing, in my opinion, on a very narrow range dealing with the current political climate. It isn't an issue of which issues (after all, that is somewhat limited) but rather what the proposals are. Rather than challenging conventional wisdom and attempting to build long range plans, I feel like many of the policy proposals that have been articulated are short term focuses and paint us more as hypocrites in some regards. The Republican Party was only able to reemerge in the 80's after it's wilderness days due to a thorough reevaluation of it's priorities. I worry that we are not taking the opportunity at hand to accomplish that.

by toonsterwu on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

"I believe the time is ripe for American liberalism to make a hard charge left."

That is exactly why we need Hillary. Obama is already making his hard right turn, appearing with Michael Bloomberg at Cooper Union in NYC to talk about free market competition solutions to our economic problems. It's Bush redux on the economic front. It's even worse than I had imagined.''

I've always said, it will take a Democrat to undo the New Deal. I think the Party has found it's man to do the job, too.

by 07rescue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

Toonster-what a pleasure to have a well reasoned and friendly conversation about this stuff. Thanks. You don't need an edit button for me to understand what you are saying here. Both candidates have quite diverse bases and if the rift between the two bases could be repaired for the fall, we will crush McCain. And yes, we need desperately to win blue collar voters. My feeling is that either dem candidate could do that against McCain, with the economy being in the state that it is. I just think that Obama provides the party a chance to redefine themselves better than Hilary does.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: beyond the beginning of the end (none / 0)

It is undoubtedly within her legal rights to do that but it will mean, as I said before, that she is putting her own interests above those of the party and the country. That would be a stunningly arrogant maneuver.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 01:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean, what Hillary will do to half... (none / 0)

of the Democratic Party, right? Since more than half are strongy in her corner all the way to the Convention.

Quite frankly, if she quits that has a stronger likelihood of destroying her half of the party.

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mean, what Hillary will do to half... (none / 0)

the point is that a half of a party is no party at all. Obama is the only one that can win in a manner that is consistent with the notion of having the most delegates. Yes, Clinton's half of the party will be upset, disappointed and mad but presumably as the months go on they will come to understand that voting for Obama is vastly preferable to voting for McCain. Obama's half would actually be denied what they won by the rules as they were established before the game began.

To clarify---I am not anti-Hillary. I am pro-Obama but I have pulled the voting lever for both Hillary and Bill.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You've got your head in the sand.... (none / 0)

Hillary's half of the party will NOT come to understand (someting) and vote for Barry.

Have you read Anglachel's Journal - that's where you will see, hear and read how strongly we feel about this?

And the more often we are told that we will come to understand (there you go again...we're just too slow to realize it now), the stronger our will and resolve becomes.

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You've got your head in the sand.... (none / 0)

stronger your will and desire becomes for what? to elect john mccain. yes, i get it. you guys will be pissed if she doesn't win the nomination. but you would go all the way to vote for mccain and guarantee us a right wing supreme court?

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I live in Arizona...I will vote for Hillary... (none / 0)

no matter what.

And elsewhere, people will just not vote. So the result will rest squarely on your shoulders.

Have fun!

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I live in Arizona...I will vote for Hillar (none / 0)

you are totally skipping the central premise of what we have been talking about. half a party is no party at all. people not voting is the same as voting for mccain. and how will you vote for hillary if she is not on the ballot?

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

W R I T E I N (none / 0)

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: W R I T E I N (none / 0)

hadn't thought of that. same as voting for mccain though. just the same as a vote for nader in 2000 was a vote for bush.

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess you're wright... er, I mean right! (none / 0)

by Shazone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain't you see how wrong that would be? (none / 0)

touche

by wasder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:54:05 PM EST

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